Topic

Prot Palain Tanking Pve

Savatage @ Kirin Tor
Savatage

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Savatage on 2017-02-15 14:44:02
Protection Paladin Pve tutorial

My Name is Savatage and i play as a Paladin.

I will start this by saying hello to all of you and wish you and wish you a great day.Over 5 years experience playing a paladin i like to think that i know the mechanics of playing it to full potential..in any spec
Today i want to tell you guys out there that play as Prot a few things that may help you become a better pve tank no matter the gs u have ..Hell there's always something to learn..
First i want to begin with the basics.

The basics are exacly as the name says THE THINGS that is a must to know in order that u can become a tank.

We start with so called COMBAT SYSTEM in wow or Attack Table.This is the table that governs a melee attack by a mob and a melee auto attack by a player.It is the law so you might say in WoW game for any attacks made
Now attack table consists of
Miss
Dodge
Parry
Block
What this means is that EVERY time a npc..mob..or player SWINGS a malee attack against you the SYSTEm /rolls
/roll -> 12
/roll -> 41
/roll -> 88
Now lets take the attack table and filling it with some stats
Now ill chose stats that match most players
Miss -> 5% this is base chance by default
Dodge -> 24%
Parry -> 23%
Block -> 20% that + Holy shield is 50%
Now the attack table is FIXED so when the system will /roll the order on the table will NEVER CHANGE and that attack comming at you will have to pass through exacly that order

Lets take the rolls made before..first was 12 right? Now considering the table that malee attack made against you will be dodged becouse on the attack table 12 is between 5(miss) and 24(dodge)

Second is 41..now 5(miss) + 24(dodge)=29 + 23(parry)=52
Now 41 is between 29(miss+dodge) and 52(29miss+dodge+ 23 parry)
that attack will be parried.

And the last roll was 81
Now we know that rolls between -0.1 and 5 will be missed
-5 and 29 will be dodged
-29 and 52 will be parried
The last roll 81 will be blocked becouse 52 avoidance comming from
miss dodge parry + 20+30(Holy Shield) that is 50=102 So all attacks between 52 and 102 will be blocked

Now if you payed attention you will see that you are over 100% total miss+dodge+parry+block. What this means is that You became Unhittable
Now what is this unhittable? Why dont everybody does this and solo raid all bosses? becouse now im unhhitable and i cant die..Wrong!
Unhittable means that you as tank WILL NEVER GET FULL HIT! And only paladins can be capped here.
Either youll be missed..or you dodge ..will parry or block..Now block doesnt stop Full hit..you can see how much damage will stop by looking at your character defence stats.

Now in my oppinion there are 2 type of tanks..Avoidance or Mittigation each with advantages and disadvantages

Avoidance is when you stack as much dodge and parry as you can and less block..and here in wotlk most tanks maybe all are avoidance.
Advantage of this gearing up type is that you have a BIG chance of not getting hit at all.Disadvantage is so called "Diminishing Returns"
"Diminishing returns" is that certain spells and abilities are less effective if they are used frequently..
Lets say u dodge to much in a row..system will random roll low numbers that are in your dodge table..If that happends and you are unlucky and get this numbers in rolls..diminishing will appear meaning that
U WILL GET FULL DAMAGE HIT and 2 unlucky hits in a row is bad..and the healer will be like:"ok ok ok ok ok
OH...****!! HE just got full hit WHERE IS MY HEALING SPELL??)
Now dodge and parry have Diminishing returns so when you stack avoidance keep in mind and make them fairly even like 22 dodge 23 parry as example to avoid this kind of bad luck and make you a better tank.And Avoidance tanks should stack dodge as parry as much as possible in gemming
not stamina

Mittigation
A Mitigation tank would use mostly Block value gear, that have bonus armor.
Meaning that you will get hit more but this hits will be low and constant since you block a high amount of damage comming at you..with Holy shield that will be like 50% the damage
Healer will always know how much damage you're taking and will never be surprised with you taking a big hit..
Note that Block doesnt have diminishing return meaning u can block all attacks forever.
They would primarily go for Stamina, Health, or Armor enchants, and the VAST majority of their slots would be straight stamina.

Now a mix between this will become a so called "Fail Tank" doesnt matter how much gs you have.If u dont choose correct gear and gems you didnt maximize full potential and a lower gs tank can be better that u are
That's why i ask people to stop asking for GS in raids and value skill more(not the case here yet)

Another thing you should know is the defence rating cap.
Defense is a skill that helps prevent physical damage by reducing the chance to be hit or critically hit. Additionally, it also increases block, dodge and parry. Mobs receive 0.1% per point of defense.
For a Paladin Defence cap is 545 rdf and 565 Raids.

Now you can use my macro for gearing..

/run local b,d,p,r,a=GetBlockChance(),GetDodgeChance(),GetPar ryChance(),GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL) a=1/(.0625+.956/(r/122.9625)) ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format("Unhittable: %.2f%% Avoidance: %.2f%% Defense %+.0f rating",b+d+p+5+a,d+p+5+a,r-689))


U will need it to get up to 102.4 % extra 2.4 % for bosses becouse them are always at least 1 level above you.

Now this are the basics a Prot Paladin should know in order to do things right..I will do more posts with more usefull things that i can share with you guys And for sure i will make a pvp tutorial too
Im sorry if i forgot something but im happy to answer every question u guys have or you can add me In game Savatage and we will talk there.

And question..i've set my main char to this lvl 9 warrior and now i have to wait 3 months to change it back..was wondering if i will delete this char..it will be set by default to next character?
Peace out and ROCK ON! m/ :D Cya in game!And kill some Hordes dammit! :))

Sacredheal @ Kirin Tor
Sacredheal
the Kingslayer

80 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Really useful information. Thanks for sharing.

Savatage @ Kirin Tor
Savatage

80 Human Paladin
0
Very happy i could help mate

Special @ Kirin Tor
Special
64 Gnome Mage
0
Prepare for me!p.s make Bubble+Heartstone macro!

Savatage @ Kirin Tor
Savatage

80 Human Paladin
0
#showtooltip Divine Shield
/script if GetSpellCooldown("Divine Shield")==0 then SendChatMessage("MESSAGE","CHANNEL") end;
/castsequence reset=10 Divine Shield, Hearthstone

Just change MESSAGE to what you want to say and CHANNEL to yell/emote or whatever. The second line will then say what you want it to say, but will only do so when there is no cooldown on Divine Shield. So, the first press will pop the message and shield, and the second will hearth, and not spam the message again.

There ya go Special..Bubble+Heartstone macro




Daft @ Kirin Tor
Daft

12 Human Priest
0
Edited by Daft on 2013-12-04 03:04:56
Very great information for the beginner Protection Paladin looking to further his knowledge into stats and theory crafting.

I do want to point out this:
"Now a mix between this will become a so called "Fail Tank" doesnt matter how much gs you have."

I actually proved that wrong on a few years back and maximized my Avoidance stats with only being 2k or so armor and 2-5k health and maybe 5-10% block behind a fully stacked midigation tank. (do want to point out, this is full icc25 norm only, and i was missing the glacial wall sheild, so i was using forlorn barrier) so my full theory crafting was kinda halted in trying to be the ultimate pala tank.

Always go for Hit, Expertise, then push your avoidance stats by using +Def/+stam, +parry/+stam, +dodge/+stam and obviously in blues/prismatics +stam
as for Enchants, go for Armor, stam and the basic rep tanking ones.

Savatage @ Kirin Tor
Savatage

80 Human Paladin
0
Well there are raid builds and icc builds...Main tank Builds and off tank builds..and here especially the icc build should be made according to the gear you are using at that moment..what im recomending is use the build according to your gear...and not a fixed build for all those things..take into consideration the raid your doing.. and the gear you are using..

"I actually proved that wrong on a few years back and maximized my Avoidance stats with only being 2k or so armor and 2-5k health and maybe 5-10% block behind a fully stacked midigation tank. (do want to point out, this is full icc25 norm only, and i was missing the glacial wall sheild, so i was using forlorn barrier) so my full theory crafting was kinda halted in trying to be the ultimate pala tank."

I couldnt imagine how you did that considering lets say a mix:
Logicaly talking lets say you are mixing..now what happends?
You will have almost same chance of dodging ..parry ..and more blocking since paladins use holy shield that gives you extra 30% chance meaning you are still blocking alot
Now you may dodge parry a bit more...but when tanking keeping holy shield up is a must..so blocking will come also..and when you do block considering you've invested some stats into dodge and parry at this moment your blocks are weak..
Now if all you invest is block valuea what this means is that you dodge..parry and when you block you are doing a high damage mittigation and also helps threat..

Always go for Hit, Expertise, then push your avoidance stats by using +Def/+stam, +parry/+stam, +dodge/+stam and obviously in blues/prismatics +stam

Everything you are using has diminishing...meaning the more you use something the less efficient will be..
now for a paladin dodge is the way to go by gemming..but think abour diminishing..couse lets say if you stack 200 dodge..it gives you ex: 3% the first time
now if you stack another 200 dodge ..the second time it wont give you 3% but less
Parry is an expencive stat..meaning 100 parry is way less than 100 dodge when stacking for unhhitable in %
After being almost maxed out..what i like to do is use a 1 hand dps weapon with high damage..so my aggro will be insane..and also the agility im getting from that 1 hand dps weapon beats the defence stats that i got from 1 hand tank weapon..becouse at that point 50 dodge only gives me 1%(diminishing) and 60 agility gives me 3% dodge..

Demetori @ Kirin Tor
Demetori

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Demetori on 2014-01-15 03:06:32
As a tankadin, you'll want to use this talent spec for raiding.

http://rpgworld.altervista.org/335/paladin.php?000000000000000000000000000500513520310232133331132151130201200300000000000000

Savatage @ Kirin Tor
Savatage

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Savatage on 2014-01-16 00:32:46
After all i said..all the arguments i brought..all the explains..you just link that..please read posts and then decide...ppl might just use that spec and its wrong..we should help them becouse thats why they are here..to be better and learn something..I mean i dont want to upset you or be disrespectfull in any way..but i just have a few arguments why that spec isnt perfect..
First : like i said before..there are MT specs and OT specs..and this is combined..If both tanks have vindication there are just 2 talent points that will become useless..
Same with Judgement of the just..if both tanks have it..useless again..another 2 more wasted points...so 4 total
If you use Judgement of the wise..and you are OT and the Mt is a warrior ..well he loses some aggro with that..or..mittigation tanks that use block value and rating will block less..though loosing threath also..a good mittigation tank always take dmg..but low dmg since it is controled..
So 6 points so far that can be spend wiserSpiritual atunement..i guess 1 point is more that enough..but this is your choise
You should have 2 points in Guarded by the light since that is your primary defence agains magic spells and with raid boss dmg..3 % is alot of dmg mitigated
1 point in benediction useless..since u will never run oom even with 1 point in spiritual attunement
3 points in Heart of the crusader..useless..some ret paladin will already have it..
Persuit of justice..useless
So please remember there isnt a fixed spec..and you should always spec it for your role..Mt or OT solo tanking or multitanking..Think about your role..then spec for it

Demetori @ Kirin Tor
Demetori

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Demetori on 2014-01-16 02:19:06
After all i said..all the arguments i brought..all the explains..you just link that..please read posts and then decide...ppl might just use that spec and its wrong..we should help them becouse thats why they are here..to be better and learn something..I mean i dont want to upset you or be disrespectfull in any way..but i just have a few arguments why that spec isnt perfect


It's impossible to have a spec which is perfect in every scenario in this game.

First : like i said before..there are MT specs and OT specs..and this is combined..If both tanks have vindication there are just 2 talent points that will become useless..


Vindication is never useless. A paladin tank without vindication is.

Same with Judgement of the just..if both tanks have it..useless again..another 2 more wasted points...so 4 total


What if the other tank(s) are busy kiting adds in heroic 25 man ToC, on Anub'arak?

You suggest not speccing these VITAL talents because there COULD be someone else who has the same effect.

This is not how this game works. Don't be so selfishly irresponsible.

Tells people not to spec 20% auto attack damage reduction, but shouts that 3% magic damage reduction is must have. I hope this is a joke.

If you use Judgement of the wise


We're talking about protection paladins, I assume you meant judgement of wisdom for now.

..and you are OT and the Mt is a warrior ..well he loses some aggro with that


Warrior has thunderclap up 100% of the time. I don't know where you're going with this.

I'm most likely misunderstanding what you say since you're confusing ability names.

..or..mittigation tanks that use block value and rating will block less..though loosing threath also..a good mittigation tank always take dmg..but low dmg since it is controled..


In heroic ICC, all tanks are mitigation tanks stacking armor as much as possible.
If you have aggro problems, there is something different going fundamentally wrong.

So 6 points so far that can be spend wiserSpiritual atunement..i guess 1 point is more that enough..but this is your choise


That's right. In a raiding environment, 1/2 spiritual atunement will suffice. If your gear is anything but trash, you will be useless in any instance that doesn't have chill of the throne.

You should have 2 points in Guarded by the light since that is your primary defence agains magic spells and with raid boss dmg..3 % is alot of dmg mitigated


Wrong. Primary defensive cooldowns are Guardian of Kings, divine protection, ardent defender and (situational) Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Guarded by the light 1/2 is enough.

The second point won't mitigate very much.

Even on Heroic 25 man Lich King, Soul Reaper hits you for 70k shadowdamage pre mitigation.

As a tank, you will at least have a 20% damage reduction effect from somewhere.

druid: alternate 4-pc set bonus and barkskinrnrn

DK: alternate 4-pc with vamp blood and you still have IBF for whenever something bad happens like your tank healer getting defile

warrior: 4-pc shield wall 4-pc last stand

paladin: every single one will be reduced by 20% because it will almost always take you below 35% health.

On protection paldins you have Glyph of Divine Plea for 3% DR, improves righteous fury 6%, shield of the templar 3%. I'm not even taking healer cooldowns into consideration .

70k * 0.8 * 0.97 * 0.94 * 0.97 * 0.97 = 48.043

70k * 0.8 * 0.97 * 0.94 * 0.97 * 0.94 = 46.557

Difference is 1486.

I don't know about you, but in these 0.5 seconds before and after Soul Reaper ticks, I always got healed for a hundred times this amount.

These 3% from guarded by the light will never make a difference.

1 point in benediction useless..since u will never run oom even with 1 point in spiritual attunement


It's a filler talent. No point in taking 1/2 imp. BoM, since there will always be someone who has a better version.

3 points in Heart of the crusader..useless..some ret paladin will already have it..


There won't always be a ret paladin present in 10 man raids or 5 mans.

Persuit of justice..useless


Movementspeed is NEVER useless.

So please remember there isnt a fixed spec..and you should always spec it for your role..Mt or OT solo tanking or multitanking..Think about your role..then spec for it


I'm telling you this spec covers everything you will ever need as a tank.

Savatage @ Kirin Tor
Savatage

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Savatage on 2014-01-16 02:39:06
"im telling you this spec covers everything you will ever need as a tank."rnrnwell buddy thing is..let me see..and explain...there are specs..pvp and pve..you can do a mix and be prepared for everything..but you will never be as good as a purely pvp spec or purely pve spec..this is with tanking spec also..i understand if you want to use that spec..is nothing i can do about it..is your choice..i just choose to do things according to the raid and my possition in it..rnyou said:rn
"It's impossible to have a spec which is perfect in every scenario in this game"
rni agree..thats why i dont understand why u put that spec in link telling "im telling you this spec covers everything you will ever need as a tank"rnrn
"Vindication is never useless. A paladin tank without vindication is useless"rn
I didnt say that both not to have it..i said only if both have itrnif both tanks have it one becomes useless..Once a tank with vindication hits the target the debuff is therernrn
Same with Judgement of the just..if both tanks have it..useless again..another 2 more wasted points...so 4 totalrn"
What if the other tank(s) are busy kiting adds in heroic 25 man ToC, on Anub'arak?"rnAdds aren't bosses...you should tank them just fine..and you missed my point..im talking here about spec accordingly to your role
rnrnand you are OT and the Mt is a warrior ..well he loses some aggro with thatrnrnrnrn"Warrior has thunderclap up 100% of the time. I don't know where you're going with this."rn
well when you block you also do dmg..and as for warriors when they get hit they generate alot more rage..so more rage more aggrornrn"
Guarded by the light 1/2 is enough. Even on Heroic 25 man Lich King, Soul Reaper hits you for 70k shadowdamage""don't know about you, but in these 0.5 seconds before and after Soul Reaper ticks, I always got healed for a hundred times this amount.rnrnThese 3% from guarded by the light will never make a difference, trust me.rnrn"rn
Thats why they are there..to make a difference..you may depend on healers..but taking less dmg when long fight saves healer mana and time to heal othersrnrn"
1 point in benediction useless..since u will never run oom even with 1 point in spiritual attunementrnrnrnIt's a filler talent. No point in taking 1/2 imp. BoM, since there will always be someone who has a better version. ALWAYS.rnrn"rn
Well onestly this is a preference thing..but i was just saying that anyway since you said you are getting tons of heals..then 1 point is more that enough for you and you can spend another point somewhere else:Drn
"3 points in Heart of the crusader..useless..some ret paladin will already have it..rnrnrnThere won't always be a ret paladin present in 10 man raids or 5 mans.rnrn"rnrn
Well as i said..spec accordingly to role...if there isnt a paladin after..and only after you cover all things that you need in order to survive as tank for that specific raid you can choose what to spec and what utility you bringrnrn
Persuit of justice..uselessrnrnrnMovementspeed is NEVER useless.rnrnrn
Really dude :l? you are the first to attack target always..what's the rush :lrnrn"
I'm telling you this spec covers everything you will ever need as a tank."rnrn

Do what you want..im not gonna argue with you anymore :) is your gameplay and your choice..and you chose how to play..i mean wtf do i know?rnrn
Wish you could see my point of view..and maximizing potential rnYou know what is beying smart? it is getting maximum from minimum..so think smart and get what im trying to tell you..rnCombining things for every possible things isnt just gonna work...you think that the BIG guilds out there use tanks with specific spec for every raid? Im talking back when wow was hard..and really you needed to get maximum of everything..but now..things are easier..if a guy like me comes and say that things should be perfect...others will come and argue that this is also good...it may work your spec i mean..becouse wow it is alot easier now in our days...but with this mentality ..back in the old days..you wouldnt had a chance
..rn
So my point is..do it smart and maximize potential..that makes you a better tank..not a bad spec..good gear and easy game ..rnrn
Ps: Im sorry if i didnt respond like you in the post..everything tight and clean..and easy to read..im just to lazy for that..rnrn

Demetori @ Kirin Tor
Demetori

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Demetori on 2014-01-16 03:01:48
I didn't read everything, since a huge wall of text, but there are so many logical fallacies that I won't even bother replying to it.

You should go back to 10 man naxxramas imo.

Savatage @ Kirin Tor
Savatage

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Savatage on 2014-01-16 03:25:57
Logic is what i used ...you seem to bash me for what i said..while i only bashed your spec

Hell i wouldnt even bother to argue with you..but this is a thread where other ppl come and read..to learn and be better..what im offering here is "by the book" ..

if i am to do a tutorial i must respect the readers and provide them as it should be..not just
"As a tankadin, you'll want to use this talent spec for raiding"
and
"I'm telling you this spec covers everything you will ever need as a tank."

If you are good at something..do it perfectly and be an example..
And in my opinion ppl should learn what it really matters..the basics..and what does a Mt and OT really mean..Singletanking or Multitanking.Teach them this..and then spec becomes a piece of cake
And

"You should go back to 10 man naxxramas imo."

Seems like i will..we all will .. See ya on Algalon :)

Demetori @ Kirin Tor
Demetori

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Demetori on 2014-01-16 03:49:39
There is little difference between single and multi tanking.

Paladins are straightforward, you run your 96969 rotation and everything else is situational.

Sacredheal @ Kirin Tor
Sacredheal
the Kingslayer

80 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Alerie, you just said it. It's situational. Your spec is a mixture trying to cover all situations and therefore not as efficient as it could be in any of them.

Demetori @ Kirin Tor
Demetori

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Demetori on 2014-01-16 09:39:12
You can use the one I linked above to do heroic dungeons and heroic raids.

I've tanked all content in heroic mode with this spec when wotlk was retail.

If you don't want to commit two of your dual spec slots for tanking, this is the way to go.

Alerie, you just said it. It's situational. Your spec is a mixture trying to cover all situations and therefore not as efficient as it could be in any of them.


With "situational" I meant weaving in holy wrath/hammer of wrath into the usual spell rotation.

Talents like Judgements of the Just and Vindication are certainly not situational.

Savatage @ Kirin Tor
Savatage

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Savatage on 2014-01-24 02:16:39
In my oppinion this is the way to go (im refering on topic not to someone specific): Best used for Avoidance type
+ aggro + survivability
Judgement of the just is pure preference.As a tank your goal is to not get hit..once you are geared that tallent isnt needed..but if you get hit alot you might take it or even spec a little in retribution tree for Vindication
Reckoning also preference ..if you are spec purely avoidance and once you reached 70%+ you can think about keeping this tallent or spec somewhere else
Ot can take Judgement of the just and vindication and like this making MT fully ROCK and like this optimizing and getting maximum potential to MT

Doing this combo it is what increases MT survivability and thus helping the raid more
Ot will get hit my adds that dont make the dmg of a boss..and even when boss switch is needed he wont die anyway ..he can last that short amount of time while the switch is happening since it isnt a FULL boss tanking fight

But once you are a raid tank and you've reached Unhitable cap and high avoidance i dont see the point in those talents. Imo this 3 tallents above are best for a gearing type tank..once you've selected style of play..avoidance or mittigation..they can be used or not..

Anyway while you gear up and get better and better gear..this talents become more and more useless

You can use this macro:

/run local b,d,p,r,a=GetBlockChance(),GetDodgeChance(),GetParryChance(),GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL) a=1/(.0625+.956/(r/122.9625)) ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format("Unhittable: %.2f%% Avoidance: %.2f%% Defense %+.0f rating",b+d+p+5+a,d+p+5+a,r-689))
Once you reach Unhitable 102.04% focus on gemming stamina and dodge gems instead of defence rating ones..you can also try gemming parry but that is an expencive stat as a paladin since 20 dodge gives you more avoidance that 20 parry becouse of diminishing returns
Once you reached 70%+ avoidance you wont have a problem with being hit anymore
If you read my first post above i said that when a malee swing comes against you the system will /roll..depending on that number you will be missed..or you dodge-parry-block..that attack against you will ALWAYS go through this exact orderr

iohr.jpg



Daft @ Kirin Tor
Daft

12 Human Priest
0
Edited by Daft on 2014-01-24 09:39:00
k, i gave up reading like 10 posts ago, so here's the deal..rnProtection Paladin.rnICC25 Heroic (mostly) Geared, Defense Capped, Expertise soft cap, Hit soft cap, 28k armorrnseems normal? or a bit low?rnHow bout the fact im in full retribution DPS spec using Glyph of Divine Storm, Glyph of Flash of Light, and tanking, dpsing and healing all by myself in a 10man raid.rnThere's a goal for ya Sav :) Good Luck.
Quick Edit: 2p t10hc ret & 2pt10hc prot. No holy sheild, but who cares, lolstorm is procing like crazy...

Demetori @ Kirin Tor
Demetori

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Demetori on 2014-01-27 05:33:01
Divinity, also known as: "Increases overhealing done to you by n%."

As a tank your goal is to not get hit


That's wrong and also impossible.

Your only concern as a tank is to not die.

Aggro is a joke in wrath.

Anyway while you gear up and get better and better gear..this talents become more and more useless


So you tell us this is the best spec you can come up with and - IN THE SAME POST - discredit yourself by stating that Reckoning gets worse as you gear up?

Once you reach Unhitable 102.04% focus on gemming stamina and dodge gems instead of defence rating ones..you can also try gemming parry but that is an expencive stat as a paladin since 20 dodge gives you more avoidance that 20 parry becouse of diminishing returns


Did you ever visit ICC? Do you know about Chill of the Throne?

Stacking dodge rating like a moron won't get you anywhere, read this instead:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26006

TL;DR of the linked post: Best avoidance is achieved by targeting a certain ratio of dodge to parry chance. That ratio is 1.88:1

For convenience sake, use this macro:

/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("If ratio above 1.88 start getting Parry. Currently at: "..string.format("%.2f", (GetDodgeChance()-10)/(GetParryChance()-10)))

If you want your socket bonuses, you go with agil/stam purples and defense/stam greens.

And you can trust in Theck's calculations.
In fact he is so fking amazing that even blizzard honored him by naming an item after him, it's a ring.

Once you reached 70%+ avoidance you wont have a problem with being hit anymore


You will have problems with getting hit until you reach 102.4% avoidance. 122.4% in ICC.

If you read my first post above i said that when a malee swing comes against you the system will /roll..depending on that number you will be missed..yada yada yada


Nobody is challenging this point, I don't know why you are repeating it. Everyone knows wow uses a singular roll.

@Syk

Your post holds absolutely no relevance for the discussion, don't post pointless comments.

Savatage @ Kirin Tor
Savatage

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Savatage on 2014-01-27 13:00:14
Dude Alerie..what u did here coming to a post and bashing all is just rude...you are a type of person that just doesnt understand doesnt matter how many examples i give..is like you read what i say and get a whole different point...do as you like..play as you like..but comming here and teaching copy-paste crap is just wrong..if you want to make a tanking thing just go make a new post and do it..but dont just come and write all sorts of things..is like you come..read..and your goal is not to see the best in what i say..is just finding stuff that you can twist so you can argue.
As a tank your goal is to not get hit
That's wrong and also impossible.
Your only concern as a tank is to not die.
Aggro is a joke in wrath.

Srsly dude
So you tell us this is the best spec you can come up with and - IN THE SAME POST - discredit yourself by stating that Reckoning gets worse as you gear up?
You know what unhhitable means? never get full hit..meaning all atatcks vs u will be missed dodged parried or blocked..since that tallent activates when you get hit or block..considering as an avoidance tank you will have 70%+ chance to be missed..dodge..or parry and only like 30% block..thats your % to activate the tallent..10% tallent info out of 30% so yeah logic say it gets less and less chance to activate.

Did you ever visit ICC? Do you know about Chill of the Throne?rnrnStacking dodge rating like a moron won't get you anywhere, read this instead
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26006

Rude again...i know about chill of the throne..if you have read my posts above you would have noticed that i said..Mt or Ot..Raid builds and Icc builds ->refering to tallents also t10 paladin set gives 12% dodge bonus..when you gem up for icc you have to take that also into consideration..also that post kinda says what i said in my posts above..wtf man..pff
Also that post is from 2008 another patch..and it doesnt say anything about icc.so i dont see what are you trying to say by talking about chill of the throne and posting a non-icc tallent and gemming link..before icc was even released...:l

Once you reached 70%+ avoidance you wont have a problem with being hit anymore
You will have problems with getting hit until you reach 102.4% avoidance. 122.4% in ICC.

Unhitable and avoidance are 2 different things..i really dont know why u said that :

Your post holds absolutely no relevance for the discussion, don't post pointless comments.


Like i said..go make your own post or thread ..im really sick of of arguing with you..i mean wtf man..i bet if 100 ppl come here the majority will see my point..what you look like here is just an annoying basher..comming with that bad spec you posted...then google things and becomming an expert..the thing is if you would have known as much as you post about this things..you wouldnt have come with that awefull BEST spec..and also you would have understand what i was trying to say in my posts..but since u havent got a clue..you dont understand crap..thats why you are feeling offended becouse of what i said..your everything a tank needs spec is just wrong.Case closed. So stop beying ofended and the twist my words..Read ffs my posts and see the reason in it smartass.
Dont u dare quote : but comming here and teaching copy-paste crap ...hope at least here u will realise at what i was refering ..but i gave u a hint becouse i know you are a person that just doesnt want to give up in a fight no matter if he looks like a...

Demetori @ Kirin Tor
Demetori

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Demetori on 2014-01-27 14:41:00
All I'm saying is the truth people have worked hard over the years to find out.

Additionally, I'm not bashing people. All I ever did was stating arguments.

And I will point out the futility of a post where someone goes like this:

"Herp derp I'm tanking ICC10 man with ret spec look at me LOLOL".

The fact that you defend such a post in your own guide - which adds jack shit to the dicussion at hand, just proves how desperate you are for arguments.

The Forum thread is years old you say? Guess what, WOTLK is also years old, and the post was made when ToC was the highest tier of raiding.

I choose this post exactly because there was no chill of the throne. Chill of the throne absolutely destroys all of your argumentation pro avoidance, since it massively weakens avoidance overall. THIS is the reason I chose it. I could have chosen a thread which dealt with the hardest tier of raiding of the expension.
I am effectively trying to showcase what you mean, then deny it with facts.

Look at this: http://jimbuie.blogs.com/.a/6a00d8341c5a0553ef015390755e91970b-800wi

I am refuting the central point and actually provide sources to my knowledge.

I know about this source because I have read about it when wrath was retail and came to the conclusion that it's true.

I bet you didn't even know what maintankadin is until I showed you this link.
You have no idea how much work these guys put into researching all the knowledge they acquired.

You complain all day about the way I am wording things and claim I'm wrong, without providing any remotely relevavant argument.

I know what the block cap is. You don't even mention why it's important.
if you manage to get 102.4% avoidance outside of ICC, or 122.4% avoidance in ICC, you will have filled the combat table with this:

Change being missed
+chance to parry
+chance to dodge
+chance to block

This means you can add your block value to your effective hp.

Read the section marked as this in the following post if you're interested: Addendum (1):
Shield Block Value and additional Effective Health.

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?1060-Effective-Health-Theory

I bet even you have heard of tankspot at some point.

And yes this post is from tbc, and yet the arguments still stand true, you just stop looking at the numbers and read whats actually written there, because the game mechanics didn't change.

All you say is "I don't like the way you treat X because they are ignorants/spammers/trolls."

Guess what, if I didn't challenge you hear right now, people would actually start to believe the bs you post and start copying it.

They will go into naxxramas and succeed, because naxx is a joke of a raiding tier even a casual would have no problems clearing.

Then they will start ulduar and get wrecked by XT/Razorscale/Ignis because they don't have a 20% attackspeed slow.

Please understand the frustration of someone who shows people the exact page in a book they have to read to learn, and the same people just go full retard and cry about the fact that the author used a font they didn't like.

For me, all you write looks like this: "You are using font X, I don't like font X, I won't try to understand anything you post if it isn't in Comic Sans."

I'm writing "understand" because I have the hunch that you might actually be a somewhat competent human being capable of arguing a matter without constantly crying about the way someone worded something.

If you want me to get a post from the time when t10 was the current raiding tier, I can do that.

Honestly I'm almost feeling obliged to write my own guide, just for the sake of new players not falling to your half-truths.

And fix the thread title. I already told you ingame that there is a typo.

Savatage @ Kirin Tor
Savatage

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Savatage on 2014-01-27 15:13:54
You sir are very annoying..

half thruths?rn
As a tankadin, you'll want to use this talent spec for raiding.rnrnhttp://rpgworld.altervista.org/335/paladin.php?000000000000000000000000000500513520310232133331132151130201200300000000000000
i'm telling you this spec covers everything you will ever need as a tank.


I say that is a half-truth since what i was trying to say to ppl is use specs according to gear and raids
They will go into naxxramas and succeed, because naxx is a joke of a raiding tier even a casual would have no problems clearing.
Then they will start ulduar and get wrecked by XT/Razorscale/Ignis because they don't have a 20% attackspeed slow.

Srsly...
cant you read?
this is what i said above:"Well there are raid builds and icc builds...Main tank Builds and off tank builds..and here especially the icc build should be made according to the gear you are using at that moment..what im recomending is use the build according to your gear...and not a fixed build for all those things..take into consideration the raid your doing.. and the gear you are using.."You sir are a lost couse that just wants to argue...

all you do is is twist my words like:
All you say is "I don't like the way you treat X because they are ignorants/spammers/trolls."

thats exacly what you are doing..

Comming here with a fun of a spec telling to ppl thats everything they need ...
Then copy-paste google stuff...
Then telling all those things that only prove me right..and twisting my words
And you want me to take you seriosly?

and i really pray to god to leave and write your own guide...you know..i've played a paladin for like some years now..and onestly i know what im talking about..and to back this up i already proved my point in game about my experience and how to play a paladin
This is my last answer to your posts...
Oh..do a post ..i know u want to have the last words..do it t..then i hope you will just leave...
I really hope more ppl will read this..and maybe if im not the only one that says you are wrong..maybe then you will see how you sir look like to the readers..but i doubt you at least have the decency to admit that

Demetori @ Kirin Tor
Demetori

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Demetori on 2014-01-27 15:23:55
Yeah I'm done here lol, believe w/e you want.

It's like trying to teach a stubborn child. I don't care anymore go ahead and spout your bullshit all day long.

It's no use arguing with someone who doesn't listen.

Daft @ Kirin Tor
Daft

12 Human Priest
0
Just eating at me not to say something on this.rnThat 102.4% Combat Table was not introduced untill the Cataclysm, nor was it even possible for a fully geared 25heroic (RS+ICC) to even properly get to that point.rnThe key was to "Balance" your stats.

Demetori @ Kirin Tor
Demetori

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Demetori on 2014-02-01 22:37:19
102.4% Combat Table was not introduced untill the Cataclysm


Uncrushability was always in the game with warrior tanks using Shield Block.

It became a big center of focus for paladin tanks come tbc when they geared to get that 102.4% with holy shield up in raid encounters.rnrnI was farming Garr and Baron Geddon with my Paladin in passive uncrushability set (without holy shield up) for the Bindings of the Windseeker at that time, so it was possible.

Wasn't really feasable in Lich King, especially in ICC as you mentioned.

Ruby sanctum rewarded avoidance tanks, since the effective health threshold was really high and avoidance was at high levels even with gear focused on effective health.

Back then I had ~300k effective health and 70% avoidance in RS with best in slot survivability gear.

Mercurial @ Kirin Tor
Mercurial
50 Night Elf Warrior
0
After reading this entire thread, I have to say that the two opposing views are vastly different and one is definitely more right than the other. Alerie presents hard cold facts and has links to back up what he says meanwhile the OP is just straight up using "experience" or also known as anecdotal evidence to provide his argument which never really works.rnrnSuffice to say, this is a private server and things might not be 100% blizzlike.

Savatage @ Kirin Tor
Savatage

80 Human Paladin
0
lmao

Highness @ Kirin Tor
Highness
55 Human Paladin
0
pR3KpyE3j5Q.jpg

Demetori @ Kirin Tor
Demetori

80 Human Paladin
0
I like this picture :D

Demetori @ Kirin Tor
Demetori

80 Human Paladin
0
Suffice to say, this is a private server and things might not be 100% blizzlike.


Thes words ring true. I submitted a bugtracker report about Vindication Procrate being not blizzlike, there is hope the devs find time to fix this issue.

Savatage @ Kirin Tor
Savatage

80 Human Paladin
0
Well it seems that algalon tanks are different now..and i'll explain why..:

I am tank in Overdozer so i have acces to all possible tanking gear in game now..So i've been experimenting alot lately and here's why..

Like i said 2 types of Tanks:
Avoidance -> Miss - dodge - Parry and lower block......example :
5% chance to be missed ( increased by Defence rating )
26% dodge - 10% by default and 16% geared...notice that this 16% is submitted to diminishing
20% parry -10% default and 10% geared
20% Block + holy shield(1300 damage reduction)
28 k armour (65% malee dmg reduction) and having arround 33 k hp
This is like the Most Avoidance i could get by keeping high stamina up and having also 545 defence rating
Now you have 5% base dodge, 5% base parry and 5% base miss alongside 5% dodge from talents (warriors, paladins and death knights) and 5% parry from talents (warriors and paladins).
Anything above those bases suffer from diminishing returns, so if your character sheet has 26% dodge, then 16% of that suffers diminishing returns. Same thing goes for parry
So first time you have 26% dodge..then 75% of that 16% will remain...lets say u dodge an attack again..u will have 50% of that 16%..then u dodge again..you will now have 25% of that 16%..and the if u dodge again u will get FULL HIT..
So carefull when you are gearing like this..becouse tanking adds will suck..having 20 adds on you is kinda 100% you will dodge and parry 4 times in a row so you will get hit alot..especially on Dalaran wow where everything is BUFFED..ADDS AND BOSSES..
Now when im tanking a boss this goes quite nice ...im dodging and parrying alot but as a paladin i also block ...Now blocking doest stop full hit..if you consider the armour damage reduction you have 65% of original hit + block and block value you will get a number ..and that numer for me at 25 man is arround 18 k damage taken each time i block(lets say Os 3d Boss tanking)..and if im unlucky with RBG and dodge or parry 4 times in a row im fked..

Mittigation Tanks ( like the name say are the tanks that instead of Avoiding getting hit..it chooses to reduce the damage they take with high armour and stamina block rating and block value)
On my mittigation gear i have:
5% chance to be missed increased by defence rating
20% dodge
15% parry
67% Block (3500 block value)
36 k armour ( thats arround 70% damage damage reduction) 8 k more armour than avoidance set...this 8 k gives me more 5% damage reduction from any malee hits im taking..
38k health

Now this gear shines vs adds..since while having 20 on me im not taking any damage at all
Now vs bosses this is another story..making alot of blocks means im getting constant 10 k hits..(lets say os3d Boss tank)
Now why is this?
Here on dalaran wow everything is buffed..
If i were to use exacly same gears on other server Mittigation one will reign supreme
I would get low constant damage like 4 k instead of 10k that im getting here
Now also please check this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_480070&feature=iv&src_vid=bqAdkYKwK78&v=H7IyCWBz-es

Anyway as an OT Block gearing will be better..but as a main tank i think avoidance is better...this sucks to be said but this is the way it is on dalaran wow

I think Dalaran wow favour Avoidence gear that involves alot of rng in it over mittigation
now for now thinks are ok...but promising Ulduar with even higher damage from adds and bosses things look dark :p..Not to mention ICC where avoidance suffers alot by having20% less dodge..Imagine doing OS 25 with no dodge ..having only parry and block..Parry is an expensive stat meaning that 10 dodge gives you more avoidance than 10 parry
Use this macro: /script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("If ratio above 1.88 start getting Parry. Currently at: "..string.format("%.2f", (GetDodgeChance()-10)/(GetParryChance()-10)))
When you get above 1.88 then 10 parry gives you more then 10 dodge..so when gearing Favour Dodge gear over parry gear
for now we can tank just fine..Remember when u guys did icc 25 hc on other servers..was decently hard right? Now think about how it will be on dalaran wow with bosses buffed...buffing them like this made Block kinda punishing..and kinda killed mittigation way of tanking..
Unbuffing bosses will suck and it is not an option since we need it to be as hard as possible
So..in the end..please share your experience fellow tanks and oppinions...contact me in game also..i always answer and we can chat..and both learning from eachother with nice conversation and arguments..:)




Goraku @ Kirin Tor
Goraku

70 Troll Priest
0
Edited by Goraku on 2014-07-28 09:32:50
I actually spent 10 minutes reading through this thread, before I came to the "I'm a tank in Overdozer" and died, please do more of these threads, better than most media entertainment we get these days.

For future reference, google links > personal experience, as the people who wrote those articles actually tested and created the macros you're posting here with entire forums(maintankadin, tankspot, EJ) contributing to their research and those people weren't casuals.

The simple fact you assume bosses in future content, example ICC will be buffed is so funny I can't stop laughing while writing this post.

The sole reason bosses are being buffed in t7/t8 content is because we are on 3.3.5 meaning talents/spells are balanced for ICC content thus are too good for lower tier dungeons and we're having people doing almost double the damage that was done when said dungeons were live.

I doubt this will change your mindset and I'll probably get the Demetori treatment in this post too, but these are things you should know being so experienced and all. :)

Savatage @ Kirin Tor
Savatage

80 Human Paladin
0
/sigh...this is what i get if i wanna talk and learn and exchange stuff with other tanks ..


Goraku @ Kirin Tor
Goraku

70 Troll Priest
0
I don't understand what are you trying to accomplish with talking and learning stuff about game content that has been talked about and researched for years, would me posting 10 links help you with it, as like I said in my previous post, everything that has been re-searchable is already out there, unless you're looking for something bugged to abuse which is the only thing different on private servers.

So instead of trying to make huge walls of texts about personal experience and saying things like:

Avoidance gearing:
having 20 adds on you is kinda 100% you will dodge and parry 4 times in a row so you will get hit alot..

Mitigation gearing:
Now this gear shines vs adds..since while having 20 on me im not taking any damage at all

Something generally accepted years ago by any decent tank, not on this particular realm
Anyway as an OT Block gearing will be better..but as a main tank i think avoidance is better...this sucks to be said but this is the way it is on dalaran wow


what you can do to help players that are new to paladin tanking is redirect them to reliable sources about the topic, even copy-pasting entire threads like most people do.

This is simply constructive criticism as I'm not trying to insult you or your effort, but you're not going to discover the new bestpaladintankingspecgearset by exchanging thoughts with tanks here.

Savatage @ Kirin Tor
Savatage

80 Human Paladin
0
Im not trying to acomplish anything mate...i just wanted to share oppinions..becouse things here on Dalaran wow are a bit different..try make a tank and see how it is...adds hit you 20 k and stuff..So wanted to see if other players have the same oppinion as i do..about Dodge parry beying better than Block in this patch...and taking avoidance rng gear over Mittigation gear..
Now if you are a tank..what would you prefer? Dodge parry and then sometime take a big hit? very spiky..stressing healer etc..? of course not..you would go for Mittigation...you would take more hits..but low constant damage..and be less spiky..healers would always know how much damage you are going to take ..
But how can you do that here atm with all the adds and bosses so buffed? Your only option is to go avoidance rng gear..at least for now..and thats why i wanted to see how other tanks see this stuff...and how they do it here...
Imo new tanks here would find this info usefull i guess ..
And anyway..there might be good tanks here also..you dont need to call us casuals or " you're not going to discover the new bestpaladintankingspecgearset by exchanging thoughts with tanks here."
Don't be mean buddy...bashing is unnecesarry when ppl want to improve :(


Demetori @ Kirin Tor
Demetori

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Demetori on 2014-07-30 01:25:09
I made a bis list of gear which focuses on armor, here are the stats. (without improved stoneskin totem)

Race: be

These values are against lv 83 enemies, I'll mention why this is important further down.

Health: 42161
Armor: 30968
Defense: 536
Dodge: 24,9919%
Parry: 19,5947%
Block: 43,7436%
Miss: 11,5975%
Block Value: 1482 (w/o LoO)
Avoidance: 56,1842%
Avoidance + Block: 99,9278%
Resilience: 15
Chance to be Crit: 0,00%

10 seconds of google and I found this :

Here is the formula for the damage reduction which you love so much, you mentioned it 6 times in this thread.


%Reduction for 80 = (Armor / (Armor + 15232.5)) * 100
%Reduction for 83 = (Armor / (Armor + 16635)) * 100


Now lets take your "calculations":

36 k armour ( thats arround 70% damage damage reduction)


~68.4% dr vs lv 83.
~70% dr vs lv 80.

I assume you just took a look at your character sheet and saw "oh look it reads a bit more than 70% dr"

Well please read the rest of the sentence, because it clearly reads: "against lv 80 enemies".

[...]

And please stop pulling random numbers out of thin air, you'll never have 36.000 armor as a Paladin tank in t7 content. And then 3500 BV on top of that? Really?

The highest I can get to is 34.5k, and thats including an Indestructible Potion .

Don't even try to mention Defender's Code , its a flawed trinket which is even worse than Essence of Gossamer .

Ragingsoul @ Kirin Tor
Ragingsoul

70 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Savatage:
So much miss information in this thread, it's impressive.

You should go back and read Tankspot or Maintankadin, on what to value as a tank.

Not once, did I read the term Effective health in your posts, which is the essence of tanking.

Yes mitigation is important, but only up to 1 point, which will change with each boss.
Putting more HP and armor at the expense of avoidance is only beneficial, if you can reach another cap to take another hit. If you can't, there is no real need to push it, and avoidance should be concidered a priority.

As a tank your goal is to not get hit

made me smile, thx Demetori for the link of my old signature:

While tanking new content, one rule is important -- it's not about taking less damage; it's about being able to take more.

That's what a Main tank is all about.
Anyway, I don't know if this was made for KT or Algalon, but most of the things are invalid with T7, and T8, as the possibilities of gear swapping is still very limited, due to the lower amount of defense on the gear compare to T10.



Ragingsoul @ Kirin Tor
Ragingsoul

70 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Now if you are a tank..what would you prefer? Dodge parry and then sometime take a big hit? very spiky..stressing healer etc..? of course not..you would go for Mittigation...you would take more hits..but low constant damage..and be less spiky..healers would always know how much damage you are going to take ..

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about.
All tanks have a certain amount of Effective Health. Effective Health is your mitigation with armor and your HP pool.

You can add/ remove a bit of armor, sure, but overall, the effect will have little impact on the total dmg of the hit, a few percentage only.

Your EH should be high enough to take 2 hits without dying, so that healers will have more than the classic 2sec swing timer to heal you up to full. For some bosses, 1 hit will be 25% of your HP, for others it may be 49%.

when you talk about low constant damage, this can be done when you take around 25% of your HP per hit. But it cannot be done when those hits come close to 50%. at that point, you should aim for enough armor and HP to make it 49%, to take 2 hits in a row, and then go for avoidance, since it won't matter if you get hit for 49% or 48% of your HP, you'll die on your 3rd hit without any heals.



Vepar @ Kirin Tor
Vepar

80 Blood Elf Paladin
0
When i originally read Savatage's "Guide" (lets call it a guide) i thought it was a trolling post meant as a Joke... But now im kinda thinking he is serious?!

Although i would like to point out to Ragingsoul

49%, to take 2 hits in a row, and then go for avoidance, since it won't matter if you get hit for 49% or 48% of your HP, you'll die on your 3rd hit without any heals.


This is Correct but Very rarely the case and its not something u can realistically aim for for many reasons.

1. Every boss hits different amount and Type of dmg
2. U are assuming a perfect 1v1 scenario with no Adds / Dots / AoEs etc
3. U assume that u get Healed always to 100% between hits (which depends on your healers)

so Mitigation over Avoidance Always ... Effective health over anything.

@Savatage
if u are planning to solo old content then u can go for that stupid never get hit thing

Ragingsoul @ Kirin Tor
Ragingsoul

70 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Edited by Ragingsoul on 2014-08-01 13:38:09
True, perfect conditions aren't realistic conditions, but it's a general rule of thumb.
If you can't avoid the dmg (magical breaths), then ofc, it's EH .
If it's just hard melee hits, (XT D. hardmode comes into my mind, but haven't done it in ages), then I would go for mitigation for 2 hits, and avoidance. 200 more HP there over avoidance stats will ofc increase your EH, but for me personally isn't worth the trade off to survivability and healing output needed. In that fight, you should get topped no matter what, blame your healers if you're not.

For most fights however, there are other mechanics involved, and then every bit of HP helps. Those include Bleed effects, or other stack up debuff that will result in :
Bleed+Melee + AOE.
In those cases, EH is again king, as the Bleed and AOE are not resistible, and the worst case scenario is that you take all 3 at the same time.


Demetori @ Kirin Tor
Demetori

80 Human Paladin
0
All that discussion is meaningless in the face of Steelbreaker hitting for 30-40k auto attacks.
We have no numbers right now, I still expect this damage output to be realistic for the hardest Iron Council mode.

Ragingsoul @ Kirin Tor
Ragingsoul

70 Blood Elf Paladin
0
that's why you have CDs.


Demetori @ Kirin Tor
Demetori

80 Human Paladin
0
30-40k auto attacks.

that's why you have CDs.


Ok. EMOTICON_Kappa.png

Ntt @ Kirin Tor
Ntt

80 Tauren Druid
0
I think you should all stop these pointless discussions and roll prot warriors.

Demetori @ Kirin Tor
Demetori

80 Human Paladin
0
Edited by Demetori on 2014-08-01 19:28:02
I think you should all stop these pointless discussions and roll prot warriors.


Please stop telling everyone our guilds secrets! >.

@ Kirin Tor

All Races All Class
0
Free joy while leveling.

I'm enjoying this thread, specially the builds.

Mankring @ Kirin Tor
Mankring

1 Undead Rogue
0
Edited by Mankring on 2015-02-11 20:10:48
Demetori make your guide then. but summary please^^
I need to know the template (or the must-have talent-points) to tank in 5-men groups.

Gromkaar @ Kirin Tor
Gromkaar

1 Orc Warrior
0
Sorry, about necroing the post. But why is the defense cap 565 for raids? Everywhere else I've read its 540?



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